by Allison Womack
(Hernando, MS, USA)
I understand why an Anesthesiologist may be upset about this; however, they have the option to go to med school or to go to nursing school.
Although a nurse may not have to go to school for as long as an anesthesiologist, a CRNA also makes about a third of what an anesthesiologist makes. I do not really see the problem. If you are making more for doing the same job as someone else, be happy that you have an increased income and do not worry about the other person. If a CRNA is capable of their job, then just let it go.
The only problem I have with this change to a “DNP” is that I have yet to hear anything about an increase in salary for CRNA’s with a DNP. If you become a CRNA DNP, that makes you a Doctor of Nurse Anesthesia Practice. As a doctor in anesthesia, you should be paid like a doctor. Of course that is not the concern here. “Fairness” is the concern. Clearly more parents should use the phrase “life is not fair” with their children; this way people will stop growing up thinking that if something is unfair, then something must be done about it. Nothing is fair; live your life the best you can and deal with it.
Comments for CRNA vs. Anesthesiologist
May 01, 2016
DNP ? NEW
by: Anonymous
I think there is a flaw in your reasoning . And dnp doesn’t give you a doctor in nurse anathema practise or whatever you call it . It gives you a doctor in nursing . By that logic a phd could fill the void and residency geared toward anesthesia specifically , you don’t, you have a masters geared to anesthesia. The dnp is mostly likely for ppl who want to be in academics . I find it troubling that degree is allowed to be used in a clinical health care setting as it is EXTREMELY misleading to the patient . If you wanted be called a doctor in a clinical setting a MD , DMD DO or something other terminal degree would serve you better.
Apr 27, 2016
valuable NEW
by: Anonymous
The last comment was well said regarding the significant difference in training, knowledge and anesthetic nurses are very different but both valuable members of the medical community.
I think everyone would agree that dentist and hygienists are not equal, but both are valuable.
What about pilots and flight attendants? again, both important.
Lets get back to medicine… Surgeons and Scrub nurses?
All valuable….not necessarily equally valuable from a monetary stand i don’t think that anyone in their right mind would argue that all of these people should be paid the same, but they should all be respected for the good work that they do.
Obviously the education, knowledge, breath and work together to provide safe care.
Apr 27, 2016
CRNA not the same as MD-Anestheiologist NEW
by: Anonymous
The best opinion to this long time debate is to ask the CRNAs who went through Medical School and experience gained doing residency in Anesthesia as well as the very basic foundation of medical knowledge gained doing medical school.
Going through Medical School entails an applicant to be at the top 1-5% in high school education, to be at 1-5% top Pre-Medical Colleges/Universities, and science of healing, etc. It’s like going through a sifter or sieve, the applicants undergo filtering to obtain the best product. Anybody disagree? Then challenge yourself to apply through the process.
The “experience gained” by the CRNA working as an ICU nurse is always directed and “at NO TIME” that the ICU nurse initiate or administer pharmaceutical or medical intervention or procedure WITHOUT the knowledge or order from the supervising MD involved. Then how does these differ from the the practice of Anesthesia……
This comment is NOT to belittle but to acknowledge the contributions of the competent CRNAs in the providing anesthetic care to the countless healthy patients, but also to expound further that the difference and many more medical disciplines that contributes to the core knowledge of becoming a physician.
The line should be drawn………to practice Medicine, go to Medical School and gain in-depth knowledge of the chosen art. “Primum non nocere” (First do no Harm).
Mar 28, 2016
Re; confusing titles NEW
by: Anonymous
Taking the time to do a little research on anesthesia history would clear up the confusion about the term “nurse anesthetist”. Beginning in the late 1800s, the delivery of anesthesia was a task originally given to specially trained nurses, which marked the first specialty practice in nursing. In the following decades, even as physicians also began to specialize in it, ALL anesthesia providers were referred to as “anesthetists” – regardless of being a nurse or physician. Eventually semantic differentiation became “nurse anesthetist” and readily available – please take the time to educate yourself before posting an ill-informed opinion on a public site.
Oct 17, 2015
Confusing Titles NEW
by: Anonymous
Titles in healthcare continue to become more and who has a doctoral degree (doctorate in nursing, doctorate in pharmacy, doctorate in physical therapy, doctorate in custodial engineering).
I’ve always thought that CRNA’s should be CRAN’s, Anesthesia Nurses, rather than nurse anesthetists. This would be more in line with the rest of specialty nurses.
Surgical nurses are not known as nurse surgeons. ICU nurses are not nurse intensivists etc so why is it that anesthesia nurses are called nurse anesthetists?
As the profession becomes more an more specialized, each medical specialty will have specialist physicians and specialty nurses. We need both, but it needs to be clear to patients who is directing care.
Oct 17, 2015
DNP vs CRNA NEW
by: Anonymous
The title “DNP” will not and should not make any difference to payment.
Just because it is a doctorate in nursing, doesn’t mean that the person will be a “doctor or physician” by the traditional sense.
Physiotherapists in the USA now have DPT’s this hasn’t affected their salaries, nor does it entitle them to introduce themselves at Dr. X in a clinical setting. Pharmacists, chiropractors, optometrists, pediatrists all have the word “doctor” in their degree’s but they are no more physicians than someone with a PhD in Literature.
Many nursing instructors also have doctorates in nursing, and as people continue to have desire to inflate their training, pretty soon the janitors will have doctorates in custodial engineering. It is all a bit silly, but I don’t expect it will have any impact on salary or scope of practice.
Oct 17, 2015
Untitled NEW
by: Anonymous
My hat goes off to both Anesthesiologist and endured the stress that it takes to get were they are!
Sep 29, 2015
Background “primary care knowledge” NEW
by: Anonymous
Not having background (or primary care) knowledge is exactly the problem. If you don’t understand treatment of comorbid conditions you do not have the ability to make critical decisions about their acute management intraoperatively.
I do not question crnas ability to perform procedural tasks with the same or perhaps at times even better proficiency but what the general public doesn’t understand it is the decision making that is more challenging than the procedural aspect.
Certainly you do not require an MD to learn hiow to follow a recipe and put to sleep relatively healthy patients.
Sep 29, 2015
Education levels NEW
by: Anonymous
I am intrigued that so many people refer to how much over-all schooling an anesthesiologist has as an indicator that they are more qualified to administer anesthesia. I had 4 level of business statistics. I can only recall the parts that I use on the job. Prior to my business degree, I took 2 years of Anatomy ands-on. In that case, I would happily have either.
Aug 22, 2015
Teamwork NEW
by: RNstar
I’m an RN (interested in becoming a CRNA) and congestive heart failure to your medical history. We need teamwork. Without CRNAs, the cost would be ridiculous.
Feb 09, 2015
Teamwork NEW
by: Anonymous
It takes a team to provide world class care.
You wouldn’t have a very good dental clinic without a dentist, dental hygienist or dental assistant and the up front staff
Surgeons can’t operate without their scrub nurses.
Same can be said for anesthesia. Anesthesiologists working together with CRNAs and resources that each have should compliment the other.
I love having an AA in the OR with me. They help make care more efficient and safer!
A team with well defined roles and responsibilities is the key to world class care!
Feb 09, 2015
Anesthesia Tech NEW
by: Anonymous
I’ve been an anesthesia tech in the operating room for over a year now and happy sooner rather than later, then become a CRNA.
Oct 22, 2014
Prof Title NEW
by: Jen
I’m sorry but I remember calling my Ph.D titled professor in nursing school Doctor. If someone earns a Doctorate of any kind then they deserve to be called Doctor in the professional setting. If you have to go to medical school to use the title of doctor then maybe we should start discouraging all undergrads from obtaining any doctorate other than the M.D. or the D.O.
Sep 06, 2014
Why can’t we all just get along? NEW
by: SRNA
I am an RN with 21 years exp. I have worked in the OR, PACU, and CRNA has to do with training, education, safety, etc. The real question to the MDA’s should be what their plan would be to cover all of these cases (especially rural areas) without CRNA’s.
New to anesthesia and very pleased that I am in a mutually respected practice by all.
Sep 06, 2014
Why can’t we all just get along? NEW
by: SRNA
I am an RN with 21 years exp. I have worked in the OR, PACU, and CRNA has to do with training, education, safety, etc. The real question to the MDA’s should be what their plan would be to cover all of these cases (especially rural areas) without CRNA’s.
New to anesthesia and very pleased that I am in a mutually respected practice by all.
Apr 17, 2014
Training time NEW
by: Anonymous
People seem to be talking about an MD’s training in med school not being specifically anesthesia focused, and some bad MDs but on the whole if there is a sick complicated patient that needs lines, epidural, nerve blocks ect, I’d take the MD every time.
Mar 12, 2014
NEW
by: Anonymous
I have a few questions for the CRNAs that think that they have the equivalent training an proficiency of practice.
1. Are nurses so much smarter than physicians that they are somehow able to learn all that is needed to be an independent anesthesiologist in 2 years x 40hrs/wk ~ 4000 hours as compared to physicians who do a 4 yr x ~70hrs/wk or 14,000 hours of training?
2. Are the standom community college equivalent to an ivy league or top tier university?
3. If you are awarded a doctorate in nursing – do you think it is deceiving to your patients to introduce yourself as “Doctor X”? What if the janitor gets a Doctorate in Custodial Engineering – is it fair for them to introduce themselves as Doctor Y?
4. If you have never managed (not just taken care of as a nurse) patients with the medical conditions that the patients that you are anesthetizing, then do you really think you have the same level of understanding as the anesthesiologist who prior to the 14,000 hours of anesthesia training had 10-12,000 hours of medical training during medical school?
This post may come off as condescending and CRNAs. The scary CRNAs are the ones that don’t even know what they don’t know.
The best opinions on the issue come from anesthesiologists who were CRNAs before. They are the only ones that have truly experienced both fields.
Mar 12, 2014
reply NEW
by: Anonymous
The difference is that anesthesiologists do a lot more than just provide anesthetics. They have done years of internal medicine, intensive care as well as rotations in sub-specialty anesthesia, respirology, pediatrics etc.
Being a nurse in the ICU is VERY different from being a doctor in the ICU.
Nurses provide excellent care and are capable of providing a basic anesthetic but an anesthesiologist is so much more….
I don’t think any real anesthesiologists are concerned for their jobs they are just concerned for the patients and want to make sure that patient safety remains a priority, not whatever is cheaper.
Mar 11, 2014
Pro CRNA NEW
by: Anonymous
So instead of reading about disease is a book, (which I did in nursing school for 2 years) I worked on an intensive care unit for 3 years taking care of different diseases and going to CRNA’s that I do not blame anesthesiologist for hating CRNAs! Studies support the fact that Nurse anesthetist are equally competent to provide safe anesthesia, so why would hospitals at half the cost. 17 states have chosen to “op-out” meaning that nurse anesthetist can provide anesthesia without an MD present at all. This tread is thought to continues. Long story short, haters gonna hate.
Oct 21, 2013
Perpetuating the misconceptions
by: Anonymous
What I find so frustrating about this debate is the nursing professions unabashed willingness to sweep the glaring (and over.
Nurse-anesthetists do not have medical educations. Yes, they spend 28 months in CRNA programs learning to deliver anesthetics, but the years spent by an anesthesiologist studying in-depth all aspects of human physiology and residency is simply not possible as part of a 28-month CRNA program. Contrary to the argument perpetuated by CRNAs, this medical training DOES matter in the clinical setting. CRNAs, put simply, are not educated enough to know what they don’t know, much the same way a pilot of a Cessna would be oblivious to the fact that fuel on larger planes often must be redistributed to keep the weight balanced. They simply lack the formal medical “experience” that anesthesiologists do. And one year or even twenty years working in an ICU as a nurse is no substitute for the formal medical training under an amesthesiologist’s belt.
There may be very few, if any, studies demonstrating the number of lives saved or morbities averted by an anesthesiologist’s input in the delivery of an anesthetic, but this is probably attributable to the fact that hospitals caring for the sickest patients wouldn’t risk going it without us.
Oct 08, 2013
CRNA vs. MDA
by: Anonymous
There is nothing that shows that an MDA is a safer provider than a CRNA. CRNAs may only have 28month programs but it is focused on anesthesia(something MDA’s basically learn as they go in residency). The CRNA also has a 16mo residency built in. CRNA’s also spent at least 1 year, often more, taking care of critically ill patients in an ICU. They do a great job and are better when it comes to lowering health care cost.
Supervision is something misunderstood by the public. They say they are but really if they were concerned about CRNA practice they would. In truth most do not supervise, they surf the internet. The public often pays 2 people to do a one man job. The person who does the work makes half of what the person surfing the internet.
Every anesthesia provider should perform the anesthetic. Let the facility board decide what they want to pay ie what you pay. If you want to pay more for a name, you can. If you want to pay less for the same result than you can.
oh and if an Anesthesia Assistant (AA) is going to deliver the anesthetic you might want to walk out.
Aug 27, 2013
Both are Good but different
by: Anonymous
These two jobs are very different. Yes both professions deal with the same population the roles are very quite different.
The general public seem to understand an obstetrician so I’ll use that as the example of differences.
Both obstetricians and patients are high risk they often require a physician to take over their care.
Another example that some may be familiar with it that of dental hygienists and if this is done in the right setting it contributes to more efficient care.
The same can be said for CRNAs vs Aneasthsiologists – both practitioners provide excellent care to patients and the complexity however is vastly different.
In many scenarios CRNAs will work under the supervision of an anesthesiologist the same way many midwives will work under an obstetrician. In other settings each group may work independently.
Changing the title of the degree to a “doctoral” degree has nothing to do with income – its simply nomenclature. You can call a janitor a custodial engineer – it does not mean that he or she should be paid like an engineer.
The most important things is that everyone works together for the best possible care of the patient and level of responsibility.
Jul 30, 2013
Shakes Head…..
by: Hammon CRNA
When I read some of these petty comments I just have to hang my head and CRNA’s) are more interested as a profession in bickering with each other than to see value in patient care. What a shame
Feb 16, 2013
crnas dnp are nurses not doctors
by: Anonymous
If a “doctor” crna wants to be a real doctor just go to medical school. Its that simple. Quit the whining and jealousy.
Nov 16, 2012
Future CRNA
by: Anonymous
Having read both perspectives, I feel like this is a familiar argument, like that of RNs versus LVNs. Education may be more extensive on the RNs part, but LVNs basically do the same things EXCEPT specific skilled procedures. As far as CRNAs and be grateful to have a great opportunity in working in a respectable profession.
Aug 06, 2012
Your facts sir?
by: Anonymous
The “team” approach is not the same as MD supervision. There are several different models that an Anesthesia group can employ.
I’m not taking anything away from MD’s, but CRNA’s spend a minimum of 28 months solely focusing on Anesthesia, the volatile agents, and drugs used in Anesthesia down to the cellular level. They do not study other topics in that time as well as going through clinical rotations at the hospitals focusing on Anesthesia.
This is not to mention any other prior education,work experience etc…etc…they have.
I am unaware of any med student who solely focuses on anesthesia during med school. Granted, they do get to scrub into surgery and don’t spend more than 2 months in an anesthesia rotation.
And I have yet to see any MDA’s do “twice” the work.
Please do not misrepresent the practice of Anesthesia from either a MDA’s perspective or a CRNA’s.
I realize there are good CRNAs and trained so that we can take care of patients in their hour of need.
As far as the statement by Anonymous who says there are studies that prove team model is best andom statements.
May 16, 2012
Interesting conversation
by: Anonymous
I think that anesthesiologists do twice the training that Crnas do and get paid quite a bit.
Mar 13, 2012
BSN-Student
by: Anonymous
It all sounds childish on the doctors part to me